Saturday, October 9, 2010

Behind the Singularity

In my third continuation on the idea of eternity being without beginning , I keep coming back to this whole "Time" thing being the real problem that trips us up over and over again. I want to throw it away and then take a look at our universe and beyond. We need to at least begin to look at it differently. We know for God time exists differently then as we know it. Past, present and future are all before him, a concept hard for us to comprehend. Did our universe in fact have a beginning? I think it's possible it may have. But what was the source behind all that creation? If we consider "the big bang theory" at all, what yet lies behind it's singularity?

I am of the belief that there is more than just our universe that exists. A multiverse or even something beyond the endless eternity we know as space in my mind seems to make some sense. I have of course no scientific proof to form any theories, it really is boiled down to pure speculation based on my current knowledge of science and religion. My question is, where did everything come from? Is it possible that it always existed in one form or another, and if so how is that possible? Good science says you can not create something out of nothing. So even if the big bang is plausible (God being the power behind it), where did it's singularity come from? Is it conceivable that somehow somewhere it's possible that there was an actual beginning to all things? Possibly a being or intelligence superior to all else discovered and laid the building blocks of all life and matter. Yet even with such a speculation, there still leaves an unanswered singularity problem of how even that being came to be! Further speculation beyond this requires twisting your brain till it hurts. It seems as those something must have always been present on a self existing principle. This however is impossible to comprehend at this time. Can something truly come from nothing after all? Or, behind all creation, beyond all we know does there exist something that exists on a self existing principle? We are taught by Joseph Smith that "Intelligences" fall into this category. I still don't understand how agency, laws and sin play such a large role? Do these originate with our Heavenly Father or are these laws self existing somehow as well or controlled by another force beyond all revealed religion?

If we say that God created everything from nothing, then we say he created the very problems that plague us and required the sending of his only begotten to pay a horrible price for sin and death. Why if he has all knowledge and wisdom and power and love would he do that? That doesn't make sense, therefore, this is why I believe he did not create it from nothing but in fact works with and overcomes the problems within the knowledge and wisdom of governing or self existing laws and principles. The Saviour was a response to problems that naturally occur based on self existing laws. Based on these laws and principles it leads me to believe there is more beyond what we know and there is more beyond the singularity. Behind the singularity we maybe able find out if there is truly a beginning or not, where time does not exist and is not a problem. Not to mention there we can understand, than look past the complexity of the whole "one eternal round" belief. We may never understand it, even in the next life either, but I'm sure we will. I believe Our Father knows all there is to know, beginning and end!

Time is not thought of as being a force. The fact of time is, it exists, it currently moves forward and we have no control over it. Space, before the Singularity, was possibly not just emptiness as we perceive it may have been. Logic dictates that in order for physical matter to exist in our Universe it must have existed before in another universe or realm/ dimension from where properties existed to create our Universe as we know it. How different was it, and how separate are we from that primordial state? It seems to reason that this existence was in a completely unknown form, in an unknown Universe or multiverse or Matrix or whatever we wish to call it. We just don't know what it is!

Next is the tricky part of time. Almost every physicist today will agree, when what they call the "Big Bang" occurred, it only required a few microseconds to create our Universe. It seems to them that "Time" did not exist until the Big Bang occurred (this is the current idea). From this scientific view point, Time only begins when the Big Bang occurs. There is no thought given on the time that the Primordial Singularity may have existed. It is as if nothing before the Big Bang is worthy of any investigation or thought. How can anyone ignore that fact of there having to be a force behind the singularity that created all that we know? The possible singularity and it's big bang is not our starting point. I believe the driving force behind all of creation is God of course. How he chooses to accomplish his creations is still mostly not revealed. But I believe good science is true religion. This is what Joseph Smith taught us in the 1840's.

We will never understand our universe until we learn how it came to be from the beginning. To learn this secret, we must look beyond theories in science. There is in fact room for theology. There is place for a Divine creator. I don't believe science will ever figure it out. But we will one day know all that God knows as he reveals it to us. We cannot blindly accept the logic that time did not start until the moment of the Big Bang. Using that logic, the Big Bang could not occur. Without Time, there could not have been a big bang. How time existed before that point or beyond in God's reckoning is not understood but it must have existed in some form. This I think is important but like I've said, thinking about it only gives you a headache. Forget Time as we understand it! Then think of the endless possibilities that await us in the next life.
Obviously, time had to exist in some form before the big bang. Where else did the singularity come from? Without this prior existence of time, the Universe could not have been created. This prior existence of time allows (something) to exist in a point of time preceding the singularity.

The Trick of Time may also possibly allow us to live separate from God for a long time according to us, yet in his reckoning we are not gone for very long from his presence. This is what we believe. How this is achieved is of course unknown. What we know of Kolob and surrounding stars is that their reckoning of time differs from ours on earth and we understand that one day in God's reckoning equals a thousand years for us. Is this achieved through the confines and laws of our universe or through mere connection to our universe through black holes, dimensions, or a multiverse etc.? I'm not a scientist, I am a theologian that uses some science as reference.

So why is Time so important? Without Time, there can be no motion, no reactions, and no energy. Without time, we could not have a Universe. What is time? It is nothing less than the Universe's equivalent to hydraulic fluid. The lubricant that allows motion to occur and determines at what rate this motion will continue. Next, I think we need to consider time existing in different forms. It can not be only linear based, if past present and future are all before God, not to mention the fact that his reckoning of time differs from ours. Time is one eternal round. To me this suggests that time is not in one form by itself. It can be manipulated in many ways. This is a very exciting idea. With that frame work, possibilities are absolutely endless. God has said time is endless and Endless is his name. What an estimable idea. What or who created time as we know it in this previous universe is a question to be forgotten by scientists and placed in the hands of theologians. We believe it is in God's hands to reveal these things to us in His own due time. All we know now based upon science is that the basic nature of time is that it moves in only one direction. If past, present and future all before God and one in the same, either time does not exist at all for him and he calls it something else or time travel in some sense is possible. What is faster than the speed of light? Nothing we know of, but is it possible outside the limitations of our universe? Is this how God can jump from planet to planet in little time or possibly all things considered, no time at all? This manipulation of time has baffled humans for centuries.

Could our universe be caught between the past and future of time and perhaps frozen in "real time" within this universe by the limitations put upon it at the beginning of it's creation? What we presently regard, as forward time, always looking into the future, could be in reality just a state or point in God's "real time". Could it be that we are now separate from real time. Like I've said before, are we possibly living at point zero eternally, with everything before us and ahead of us existing together. We move with time and in time without affecting anything else, thus we live in one eternal round. If that even makes sense, because I'm not sure it even makes sense to me. Our reckoning of time flows from the point of Singularity. At this point this is all we may be able to say. Where our universe is currently positioned, with respect to time, is the present point between past and future. It is here in the present that our universe may possibly always remain from the point of it`s creation, unless it has another destiny which is yet to be unfolded. We may be able to say that something has always existed due to the fact that something existed before time as we know it was ever created. Interesting twisted thought no doubt. Therefore, I say "Time" is the mystery that science and religion has yet to discover. I one day hope to obtain the truth of all things.


Gunner said...

I realize none of this is important regarding our salvation and I should have ephasized as such, but is only a topic of interest and speculation. We will one day know the truth revealed to us by the Lord.

D&C 101
32 Yea, verily I say unto you, in that day when the Lord shall come, he shall reveal all things—
33 Things which have passed, and hidden things which no man knew, things of the earth, by which it was made, and the purpose and the end thereof—
34 Things most precious, things that are above, and things that are beneath, things that are in the earth, and upon the earth, and in heaven.
35 And all they who suffer persecution for my name, and endure in faith, though they are called to lay down their lives for my sake yet shall they partake of all this glory.

AlexanderG said...

Gunner this comment is for you and all seekers of truth who hunger and thirst for heavenly knowledge like they thirst for water. DAILY! Since you seem to be a man after my own heart i saw you statements and was touched by how you desire so strongly to know more and to not be content with just dwelling in the valleys of knowledge and seeking to reach the mountain tops of understanding. I hope you receive this as well as others who may read it with an Eye of faith and an open mind for it may seem strange to you but i know it is true. I have of myself over many years of starring into the night sky pondering and have fasted, prayed late into the nights, studied both religion and science as much as can be done and have received revelation for myself both in and out of the temple. And have received answers from my desire and diligence regarding this topic. The topic which i mention is the universe and the grand creations of the Father as they relate. Scientists will one day realize that the big bang theory is almost correct but not quite. What i mean is the universe has no beginning and has no end. like the wedding ring it goes around in a circle or one eternal round. The full meaning of One Eternal round is too long to discuss in this message for right now but it is with No beginning and No end. They say with the hubble telescope the observable universe is now 13.7 Billion light years across in size. But what they are seeing is the extent to where light is the limit it hasn't reached us yet from father distances away. The way it works if you will receive it is each galaxy or collection of billions of stars had its own big bang beginning as we may say where it started from Our Heavenly Fathers White stone D&C 130:10 and Revelation 2:17 given to him when he was crowned a God by his father many Billions of years ago according to earth time or telestial time. Each galaxy is presided over by a heavenly presidency, ie a Father God The Creator, The Son God the Redeemer, and the Holy Ghost, God the Testator.

AlexanderG said...

Part 2
Now Each Galaxy has three different Regions the outer region where there is lesser light the telestial zone where our earth currently stands in the outer reaches of the spiral arm of the milky way galaxy in its current solar system, the middle region or closer inner zone the terrestrial where translated beings live on terrestrial earth like worlds and the closest centered region where it is the brightest is the celestial region where celestial worlds are to be found. And at the Center of the Galaxy is the world that is the throne of God and nigh orbiting unto it is Kolob after the reckoning of the Lord. Abraham 3:2-4. Scientists say that the center of the milky way galaxy and all other Galaxies there is a super massive black hole but this is also not totally accurate but close which they will discover maybe at some future day. But they call it a black hole because they can't see it, they can only see its effects gravitationally upon nearby stars and the galaxy as a whole. Another key in all of this to remember is that all the planets, stars, and moons all have gender male and female just like all the animal kingdom, plant kingdom, and human kingdoms do see D&C 88:45. Just like there is invisible attraction between male and female so also is it like this with both the worlds, stars, and galaxies. Joseph smith in his teachings, (read the history of the church, explained that the throne of god has a veil placed around it so that light could not pass from it and consume all the planets throughout the immensity of space. This Veil causes this supermassive star to not emit its light to protect the countless worlds without end. This is how the Gods organize there own galaxies in this manner and pattern which has been going on forever. And heavenly Father had a father Revelation 1:5-6 and he has his own galaxy. And his father's father has his own galaxy and this has been going on forever. So if you could travel at the speed of thought transmission like celestial travel is and went to the edge of the observable universe you would be able to see even father out than 13.7 billion light years because everything is expanding over time. There is a reason for this. One of your questions you posed is a very good one which was why does everything exist and where did everything come from? To answer this there is a hymn titled "if you could hie to Kolob" #284 The second line says this, The works of God continue, and i might add the works of the Gods continues
And worlds and lives abound;
Improvement and progression
Have one eternal round.
There is no end to matter;
There is no end to space; So with this in mind everything exists because each time that new Gods are ordained in the universe the following creations have improvement and progression. This constant improvement through each successive creation produces more progression " worlds without end".

AlexanderG said...

Part 3
This does not mean that God increases in knowledge for the Gods have perfect knowledge. The progression occurs by the Gods saving as much of there creations as possible according to the agency of elements see Abraham 4:18 see how the Gods patiently watched those elements which they had ordered in the creation UNTIL they obeyed through their Agency not FREE Agency because its definitely not Free it comes at a great price. Your other question i love is where did everything come from. To understand this i will give you an explanation based on our own physical bodies. Your physical or temporal body made of physical elements is controlled by your physical brain. Your Physical brain is controlled by your spirit body. Your spirit body is controlled by your spirit brain. Your spirit brain is controlled by your intelligence. In essence there are 3 levels of matter in the universe.
Physical matter for example look at the periodic table of elements known to man, ie hydrogen, helium, etc.
spirit matter for example see D&C131:7-8. All spirit is matter.
it can neither be created nor destroyed it can only be recycled, converted, or changed into different forms of energy.
Intelligence matter for example see D&C93:29-36. It can be understood as higher particles of light or Glory as it is referred to or spirit energy beyond basic spirit matter.
Now there is an infinity of matter and space. and God glorifies himself by saving and exalting all that his hands have made providing they exercise their agency to do so. This is all i feel i am allowed to say for now. God bless you and Good luck on you divine quest for light and truth in this earthly wilderness. I love this Gospel of Jesus Christ how true it is I know that it is true. Never give up on your desires for Righteousness for you never fail unless you fail to try till the end in the name of Jesus Christ, Amen.

Gunner said...

Alexander, I really aprieciate your comments. I've read them over and over again and given them a lot of thought over the past few days. What you say seems to make so much sense, it brings so much clarity and answers so many questions, it is really quite astounding and refreshing. I really want to embrace it. Joseph's ring theory, or explaination, whichever you choose, is so simple yet so complex, kind of like faith. I see it as a never ending progression and expansion, moving forward on a point which I refer to as point zero. Past, present and future all before us, no beginning and no end. "THE CYCLE OF INTELLIGENCE" is what I've come to call it. What has bothered me in recent years is the apostles use of the word universe. I'm not sure how they are defining it. Neal Maxwell used to say that Jehovah was the Lord of the universe. Does that imply complete beginning/endless universe? Or,the universe at this point in time during this round of the plan of salvation in action? I can't see how those models stand based on many of Joseph's teachings about God and how the plan was organized. Is He the Lord of the galaxy? At least this seems more reasonable.Yet He just so happened to come to our planet, live and pay the price here for all planets? Did we win the Milkyway jackpot? Something doesn't add up. If the father knows the Son completely and understands him and they are "one", and Jesus does and has done everything he has seen the Father do, does that imply at some point did He,"the Father" have to go through what Jesus went through as a savior. We say "as man is, God once was",then all of this begs the question, will we ever have to play that role in our eternal progression? Crazy Stuff! We become like the father through a long series of Progression according to Joesph. Kings,Queens, priests,priesteses, etc. I find this very interesting theology. I wish I had more time to post but life has been keeping me busy. Thank you for your comments. I would love to hear more of your thoughts and beliefs if you are so willing to share them. You can always send me emails if you prefer some things be more private. Thanks again.

AlexanderG said...

AlexanderG here again thank you for your kind words in your response to me. Give me your email address and i can email you and do all the questions and answers you like because the topics of your last set of questions open major discussions on almost each and every one of them including answers to questions that we have not finished from the previous topics like the true meaning of "One Eternal Round", "Universe", and "Beginning". And judging by your level of understanding of the doctrines so far i can see that it would be best to keep the "Meat" to yourself and share the "Milk" with most. what i would go over with you would be best mostly to keep it to yourself unless you also felt the person you were teaching afterwards was prepared to hear it. Maybe what we can do is start a methodical teaching discussion on an Eternal Timeline starting with before the spirit birth of the unassigned intelligences before the beginning of the preexistence to our spirit children being birthed through celestial procreation of those spirit children in the resurrection and them becoming Gods billions of years later and everything in between like cave men, dinosaurs, the 3 time dimensions, the biggest of all the topics which the most time should be spent on the Creation, Atonement, and the Fall and its relation to the salvation of earth and man, and also other topics along the way like the distribution of the animal and plant kingdoms throughout the 9 Heavens or Degrees. Or things like how the earth will die at the end of the resurrection and everything else desired. And if you like for educational reasons of clearing up myths we will even discuss unimportant topics like the locations of outer darkness and the Cain Bigfoot concepts, etc... But Keep in mind that building line upon line, precept upon precept, and doctrine upon doctrine with you will work the best so that way multiple topics won't have to be repeated many times. My email address is talk to you soon